Sam Evans-Brown: Well this might be a good moment to talk about hoaxes. Early in the morning. And today we're talking about the mysterious elusive mountain line with folks who know something about it. And I just said I saw I saw they from behind the shoulder all the way past the long tail. I mean that so many of them are false sightings we. Really appreciate you guys being here as well. To date most of the pictures that have been sent in have been bobcats and other species Ive received pictures of house cats. Known to exist in the state for over well over a hundred years. And when provoked no animal could stand before him elegantly put. So. So what those ranges. HOLDERNESS, N.H. (AP) Two of the known mountain lions in New Hampshire have spent their 15 years in close proximity to humans. Patrick Tate: So I just got to throw a little interesting side note in this. Do we have native species that could have exhibited this type of behavior leaving leaving a deer carcass up in a tree. Contact the Wildlife Division at (603) 271-2461 or wildlife@wildlife.nh.gov to request an observation report form. I don't see the hoaxes anymore at that level. Every other Friday on Morning Edition NHPRs Sam Evans-Brown tracks down answers to questions about the environment and outdoors for our listeners in a segment we call Ask Sam.. Do you get a lot of these these these things that end up being hoaxes. Tonight, Sean McDonald investigates,. Sam Evans Brown. For all the men out there that don't realize it. The species that once inhabited the Northeast, known as the eastern mountain lion, is now extinct. From: Boomerdog in OK 08-Oct-07 Patrick Tate: I've had hunters hang deer carcasses forbidding wildlife entries. Enable JavaScript by changing your browser options, and then try again. If it's just in the middle of a greenfield you can't prove anything. I live pretty much on the town line of Greenfield just a couple of miles down in the Greenfield. Theyve always said when we have verifiable evidence to say a mountain lion has been, is, or was in the state that wed acknowledge that and give that information out, says Pat Tate, the furbearer biologist with New Hampshire Fish and Game, who insists theres no conspiracy. Sam Evans-Brown: You know the North America had a number of large predator species when humans first arrived in the continent. And that's this morning at 10:00 here on NH PR. I can't tell you what you saw but it sounds like a mountain lion. Deer Bear Moose Wolves Fisher Mountain Lions. The way that we define species has undergone a revolution with the advent of DNA testing. I was at the Sentinel as a reporter there for about four years and during that time I probably wrote close to a half dozen stories or so on this topic including a lengthy feature at one point that in which I spoke to several people from around the banana region claimed to have seen mountain lions that at one time or another. Second when I when they did forward it from Wyoming to to Michigan you know this was coming right from sample 18 and 19 had no remarkable differences from known mountain lions from Michigan or Wyoming. Yes. A lot of times. So that did it for me. Well I can't tell you what you saw. So there's even debate about that very subject. But the state always denies it, and none of us know why they deny it. Nicholas Handy can be reached at 924-7172 ext. Patrick Tate: So it's interesting it's brought up. And why would they what. NHPR is nonprofit and independent. Sam Evans-Brown: Pretty well I was going to say it is nice to hear about how to identify the facial markings but probably I'd being a to identify the tracks is probably the more useful useful tool that one can have in their tool box. And they asked me about the tail which I just did not remember that tail out of that whole experience. Mountain lions (especially males) have incredibly large ranges that they defend from rivals. He said matter of fact I do. So it is possible to see male Mountain lions roam into the northeast - there was one hit by a car in CT a number of years back - but we don't have a breeding population of Mountain lions in New England. and territorial animals are much more inclined to create a problem with passer bys than dispersing animals in fact I'd be totally shocked if a dispersal would encounter with a human purposefully unless they had already had some type of training to do so. So I certainly can't dispute anything that they said there's no evidence for me to go by to verify or say what my thoughts are on the situation. Its impossible to say, but I think the odds are pretty good that some of these sightings are legit. Peter Biello: What about the idea of tourism like us leaving aside the fact that it is not on the Endangered Species Act is it. The panther, Fells concolor, is a beast of many names, most frequently referred to in New Hampshire history as catamount, but sometimes known locally as "Indian Devil" or "Carcajou", under which . Phone number 1 800. Thank you. You saw what you saw. And we want to know your stories if you have them 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 or email exchange at an HP bar dot org we'll talk about conspiracy theories when we come back. And Rick van de Poll naturalist and founder of ecosystem management consultants of New England. Right. It's listed as population of least concern. The second story window through about 30 feet away from it. John you're on the air. Patrick Tate: Yes. So. The book MAMMAL TRACKS & SIGN by Mark Elbroch has pictures of mountain lion scat found at a multiple beaver kill. But before I go any further I want to say we do not have sufficient game. Which goes back to the Connecticut Connecticut cat and what not. So so in 2011 a mountain lion was killed in a car accident in Connecticut a car hit a mountain lion and killed it. Mountain Lions in New Hampshire-Fact or Fiction. John thanks. Sue Morse: First and foremost if you have color or if you could see details of color look at the front of the face around the Pumas muzzle the muzzle itself is pure white. Thanks for calling. Have you heard stories do you have questions about the mountain line. Less than a year later I found a scat on the swamp range and I was working at the time with a fellow at the Michigan wildlife habitat Federation. I would just suggest that in my experience as a reporter covering this covering this issue for a few years at least at what point do we reach a certain critical mass for lack of a better term of accounts where I'm not to suggest that you guys aren't taking this possibility seriously. NH Fish and Game Wildlife Biologist Patrick Tate reports that so far, mountain lion reports accompanied byphotographs have been misidentified bobcats or housecats, or pictures of mountain lions taken from the Internet and reported as being recorded in New Hampshire. But if you do if you think you're looking at a wild Puma their tail is very thick and especially in the winter is very thick and ponderous looking. DNA from scat or from fur, a clear track that is confirmed by an expert, or a photo that clearly shows a mountain lion. Let's look for other evidence. Peter Biello: When did you allegedly see a mountain lion. That's the real story is they can't follow up on every one of these sightings. I don't know if she still is. The states never denied mountain lions are here, and theyve never admitted mountain lions are here. If you believe you have seen a mountain lion and want to report it to NH Fish and Game, please contact the Wildlife Division at (603) 271-2461 or wildlife@wildlife.nh.gov to request an observation report form. I believe I saw one that's fine and I'm not looking for an immediate story. Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an HP yard today we're talking about the mysterious elusive majestic Mystic Mountain Lion. Rick van de Poll: Yes. Caller: Are probably. Current conditions in New Hampshire would support a mountain lion, according to Tate, as forests have returned, allowing for prey species to become more prevalent. Incredible sighting and I called him the fish and game and they immediately sent me to a website to look at all the bobcat pictures. You know interactions are pretty unusual. Peter Biello: And that will make identification for a layperson rather difficult. Well they are the same. Reports without physical evidence are not dismissed, however Fish and Game cannot verify a sighting report without physical evidence. Caller: I do. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. Patrick Tate: So one thing I'd say is DNA would definitely identify an animal animal's Mark line or not. NHFG Wildlife Biologist Patrick Tate identifies this cat as a bobcat. And in fact in 2011 when it was announced that the eastern cougar was officially extinct the reason that announcement was made is because they said really that it never existed. I had a resident in New Hampshire tell me a story of a mountain lion in the 1960s where a person who would come summer in New Hampshire and then live in a different part of the country in the winter had a trailer that was housing his mount line. And it came out we could see it had and we could see its long swooping tail. Thank you very much for that story really appreciate it. And then just up behind it you know at about 11 o'clock on one side and whatever that would be on the other side it's black. Caller: It had to be a mountain lion convinced I was about 30. We speculate they dont want us to screw up tourism we dont know whats going on. So take care of this problem. for some excitement. Peter Biello: There have been several alleged sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. So Marty can you see what I'm getting at is the public sees different names and thinks that they're different animals but it's all the same animal. Anyways after three weeks I finally found the image on line on a field and stream photo contest and the explanation in the end was the person that set the camera out with another individual and they believed that someone who knew of the camera location saw the similarities put the can't picture on their SD card so it looked like that camera recorded the image that is. Caller: I got home to my wife that a gene that you should have seen the cat. (Cue the X-Files music: The Government is denying the cougars exist!) This decision was primarily for nerdy phylogeny reasons, though, because the eastern cougar probably never existed. HOLDERNESS, N.H. (AP) Two of the known mountain lions in New Hampshire have spent their 15 years in close proximity to humans. So it's there was no question in my mind. Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an PR. Your support makes this news available to everyone. And they used to be this whole list of the different subspecies of mountain lion and it has since been reduced to just to the North American and the South American. Deer Bear Moose Grey Wolf Coyote Foxes Fisher Mountain Lion NH Wildlife History. So I just brought up the bobcat thing because the location is fascinating to me that that that location we have Bobcats existing but that location we have a mountain lion report because it's a developed area and which brings me back to earlier what I had said it's a bouncing ball. Chapter X, Predators, Panther (Mountain Lion) From History of NH Game and Furbearers by Helenette Silver, Research Clerk, NH Fish and Game Dept. Thanks very much. And they were using all the habitat. The most common areas to see mountain lions in Arizona are in places of rocky and mountainous terrain. Let us know your story and share your photos. Peter Biello: Mm hmm. This is where things start breaking down when you so I get pictures with this great description and one of my favorite stories is a great description what the witness and then so I called the witness and wanted information from them and the person says What are you talking about. So so. Email exchange it an HP fraud org or give us a call 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. So Pat you field a lot of calls about people seeing or reportedly seeing mountain lions. Sam what's the incentive for the government to deny allegedly. Mountain lions remain an enigmatic animal for residents of New Hampshire, with New Hampshire Fish and Game reporting three to five sightings per week. Residents Report Mountain Lion Sighting By Elysia Rodriguez Published August 11, 2015 A southern New Hampshire neighborhood believes a mountain lion is roaming the woods near their homes. Rick van de Poll: Oh yeah absolutely. Well let's hear from from Sue Morse again science director for the organization keeping track. Absolutely. Is there something particularly hospitable about New Hampshire Forests that make them want to come here. brings a lot of. My wife and I saw a mountain lion. She is renowned for tracking. So hard to know hard to refute if there's no interest in making up a story which many people of course do then I would respond the same way as Pat did. PublishedNovember 16, 2018 at 6:16 AM EST. And it's not really strong. Now again I don't know that there's anything to that. Erler is a senior naturalist at the Squam Lakes Natural Science Center in Holderness. So I think the point that I just want to get across is that there is a very strong sense this here in the and not region that there is that there is some sort of mountain lion population how large it is how extensive it is. And because you know things flow downhill and I was pushed to go investigate it more and met with the individual two or three times and there was a bunch of inconsistencies about the photograph. It was not a bobcat. I'm Peter Biello. Peter Biello: Yeah some of what she was saying sounds like it would require getting pretty close or at least having a nice zoom lens right Sam like. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. Well Is DNA the most reliable means we have of identifying whether or not what we saw is actually a mountain lion. Listeners give us a call if you'd like. It's you know I recognized their report and. Peter Biello: Well John thanks very much for the story really appreciate it. Peter Biello: So Patrick today Fish and Game no downward pressure on you to deny the existence at all costs of mountain lions here in New Hampshire. Despite numerous reports, the NH Fish and Game Department continues to have no physical evidence of mountain lion presence in the state. The western mountain lion lives in a more of a grassland open area now so to blend in with a very lighted situation here in the Northeast we are very shadowy dark situation because of the forest and our cats wear a darker brownish reddish color than what they were and they were also smaller than what the western mountain lion is. But also I think it proves the opposite point which is that sometimes they're pretty secretive because all the way from Minnesota where the where was the first time was picked up on a game camera to New York. Peter Biello: We at this e-mailed comment from Michael. And still the the folks there did weren't able to come up with it with 100 percent certainty what deposited that scat. 1957. But I was riding a mountain bike not far from my house. The big cat has been extinct here since the mid-1800s. Patrick Tate: Yes. But but I've also seen it cited the opposite way that look they're very secretive. Peter Biello: Well I want to ask Patrick about one of these stories a few years ago you had a story about someone who claimed to. Well thanks for sharing. Tim Yeah. As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all along the waykilled a beaver near the Quabbin Reservoir in Central Massachusetts, left behind prints and DNA at that site, and then was hit by a car in Connecticut. You know I think it's there's a lady Holly Ernst out in California who has done a lot of the genotyping of mountain lions in Northern California the ones that are of course most people have heard about taking down hikers bikers etc. Wed love to be part of the first verified sighting. So what counts as verifiable evidence? I found a second scat scent both to him. I actually been interviewed a couple of times by reporters and with all due respect for the media you know facts aren't always communicated correctly. Listeners we'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this. BRADFORD, N.H. - All that snow in parts of the Northeast has more than just kids jumping for winter joy. Well let's talk a little bit about that. It's good to talk to you. So one thing I'd point out is we've been talking about situations with no evidence a number of them come in with photographs and yet what they fit what they description of the animal they saw and by the way I got a picture of what I saw. OK. That location they just described we had two or three Bobcats radio collared on just off the runway in Laconia airport. It's completely possible that it may have spent time in New Hampshire and went undetected but had it stayed in the area ultimately it would have been detected over time. Caller: Yeah I hadn't experienced blastoff fall so this was around September and I was driving from Webster into Concord on Horse Hill Road and anybody in the area would know I was right near the Red Barn and all of a sudden this animal jumps out of the woods and it bounded across the road in about two two giant leaps and stopped in the field just on the other side. Rick van de Poll: Well I didn't. It traveled all the way from from you know Minnesota to New York without being so seen Patrick take. Peter Biello: Hmm. Peter Biello: Well Mike thanks very much for sharing your story. Let's go now to to Kyle in Keene I believe Kyle is this Kyle Jarvis from the Keene Sentinel a former reporter and former reporter. Over a period of a year and a half, this Mountain Lion left DNA evidence in at least four states. And so. On a dirt road. So they're scary. Me Im willing to believe its possible that there are some out there. The best documentation we have in New Hampshire suggests there hasnt been a mountain lion killed by a hunter in this state since 1885. Mountain Lions are a mythical creature in New Hampshire with strong feelings on both sides of the question: are there Mountain Lions in New Hampshire? And so maybe before I go to you recommend I ask you Patrick Tate is the standard too high. Sam Evans-Brown: Certainly that is a thing I've heard but again you have to think of the incentives involved here. Patrick Tate: So Cougar Mountain Lion katama. Caller: I cannot recall or see the tail in my in my image of it. Infinite Scroll Enabled. Peter Biello: So let's say Rick that it was confirmed that there that there are mountain lines here in New Hampshire. Monday, December 5th: Mountain Lions in New Hampshire? NH Fish and Game relies on physical evidence to answer questions about the presence or absence of mountain lion in the state. Fish and Wildlife Service decided all of the cougars, pumas, and mountain lions in the country are actually the same species, and that species hasnt had a breeding population anywhere near the Northeast for at least 70 years. By, March 2023 Fund Drive Rules and Regulations, Persons with disabilities who need assistance accessing NHPR's FCC public files, please contact us at publicfile@nhpr.org. He writes As a farmer I come across many outdoorsman looking to hunt our property had a conversation with one who believed very strongly that we had mountain lions in New Hampshire. Yes. I looked at the picture and asked me what do you see in the picture and I wrote back. Patrick Tate: Nice talk to you too. Now Bobcat is a completely different species. And I have to use that word allegedly because there is so much dispute about what people see and what they actually see. Chartered: 1973 . So Michael follows with the question. So maybe a good pet for you but not for your neighbor if you just stop by unannounced. Rick van de Poll: Well education is the real important thrust of of what all of us do as biologists and Game Managers and to make sure that a things like what Sam was saying that in spite of what you believe the mountain lions will not eat your children they will not steal your pets from your backyard and they will not necessarily be seen by you unless you're extremely lucky. Peter Biello: And Carl before you continue I think Patrick Tate just give me a second. Caller: Oh hi. So nowadays we think of this in the Northeast as crazy stuff that people have a mountain lion as a pet. And those and that's how you can go from a story that Pat says I have nothing to say about that to a story that you know could be the first verified sighting in over 100 years. A 140-pound male mountain lion was hit by a car and killed in 2011 in Milford, Connecticut. County road and all of a sudden a big cat jumps out of the woods over a stone wall stood in the middle of the dirt road as I rode towards it. I mean no doubt a seen Bobcat seen his stuff. And I was probably about a half a mile from downtown all village on the right. Think you've seen a mountain lion. She was having a garden party on her back porch and everybody in the party saw this mountain lion across the field down below the porch. They're very loyal to what the handler which makes them very dangerous to everyone else. Have it reported down in the Keene area. Caller: Hey guys how you doing. Were there any differences between these two that we could have noticed right off. Copyright New Hampshire Fish and Game Department.An official New Hampshire government website. support for an HBO who comes from you our listener Sam from advanced in you a local New Hampshire nonprofit specializing in college student loans and student refinancing options. Peter Biello: From New Hampshire Public Radio I'm Peter Biello in for Lark Knoy and this is the exchange. So so they're just a very resilient species and they're pretty they're pretty neat. If it's someone that has an illegal captive animal that is accustomed to humans those leave a lot of evidence because they want to go around humans to find food meaning they're used to being fed by humans. Any sense of of whether or not mountain lions are sort of wary of more population dense areas like like the one he was describing Rick. They sent he sent his scent those two samples with his to Wyoming an unfortunate Fish and Game Commission there did not get a positive read on it but send it back to Central Michigan University where they did a nuclear micro satellite DNA analysis and found no significant difference between that scat and other scats that were tested from the Rocky Mountain region. So for me as a person who's had the Bobcats right off my grits similar carries sticks to a bobcat The Long Tail obviously very different but those facial markings were overlapping for me. Let's talk to Mike in Webster. So I don't understand really how how this this idea came to be but it is the main reason why folks believe that fishing game is is covering up the fact that there are mountain lions in the state again with no evidence. So that's the specimen that you find going long distances. 19 We want answers. Verifiable pictures recorded by the observing person or a trail camera. Yet this young male traveled about 1,800 miles. The American Lion The Saber tooth Tiger and this was the one that survived. So we tossed these terms around but really the term subspecies has been sort of redefined in our lifetimes. The species that once inhabited the Northeast, known as the eastern mountain lion, is now extinct. I just saw the head and the tail that was leaving. Today, their range stretches from the Yukon Territory in Canada along the western coast of the United States, all the way to the Southern Andes in Chile. New Hampshire Public Radio | Peter Biello: We mentioned that the eastern cougar and the Western cougar are they were separate eastern cougar believed to be extinct. Sam Evans-Brown: What he would have stopped as well I think is way way that the reason that mountain lion kept moving is because he wasn't finding anybody. I'm Peter B yellow. Patrick Tate: So it's very typical. Peter Biello: Ok weird question but do they make good pets. By, March 2023 Fund Drive Rules and Regulations, Persons with disabilities who need assistance accessing NHPR's FCC public files, please contact us at publicfile@nhpr.org. Does not test random Scouts. Thank you. We're gonna cue you up and bring into the program listeners in just a moment but I want to ask about the role that Mountain Lions play in the ecosystem we've been talking a lot about mountain lions traveling and being sort of hard to track as they move. Patrick Tate: So I'm not sure what subspecies of cat they're using to differentiate by those markings but once she was describing the White other face in the black. Russ, from Sandwich (and Bedford) asks: In Sandwich New Hampshire, everybody has a story about seeing a mountain lion. Mike thanks for your call. Sam Evans-Brown: Well first I want to sort of explain why what the theory is but then also throw a bit of cold water on it because I don't think there's much much logic behind it but essentially is that if fish and game were to acknowledge that there was a population of Mount lions in the state there's a chance that something like a listing under the federal Endangered Species Act might happen and then there'd be you know some they'd have to put a plan in place to protect the species there'd be you know restrictions put on development.